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Thread: [Gameplay] MES as non-reactionless "ballistic jump" FTL

  1. #21
    Newer Member BillyCrusher's Avatar
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    In my humble opinion this issue is one of key pillar of gameplay. I've just tried 'Children of a Dead Earth' and so far I under the impression from beauty of orbital warfare. The key point, alpha&omega, is Delta-V. I believe RS can reproduce orbital warfare simulation with same fidelity level as CoaDE and even better because it will from first person view. And all this deeply modeled system... But MES with practically unlimited Delta-V completely break all rules. You don't need take care about saving your delta-v. You can change trajectory as many times as you want, reversed orbit, change plane etc. If your opponent do not want head-to-head, he will continuously evading, you will pursuit and it will be endless dance (at least until you have fuel for LENR and oxygen for you).
    So, I prefer any other handwavium, even "Jump Gate" or "Quantum Drive" for interplanetary transfers instead current MES that kill not only physics law but base of gameplay. It's not very noticeable on current stage because we don't have combat features yet but when orbital warfare will take place in RS it will serious trouble.
    I believe Michael has own opinion about this issue but I think it is topical issue and have to be discussed.

  2. #22
    Registered Psypher's Avatar
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    Handwavium for handwavium, I prefer the way it is now, but you have a very good point here, so, what about a system where the simultaneous usage of MES and weapons generates a lot of waste heat?

    I don't know if this is even plausible (space weapons generating a lot of heat) so, sorry if this is a silly suggestion, anyway this is a very interesting discussion and I want to keep my eyes on it.
    I apologize in advance for any grammatical error or misuse of words, unfortunately my english is not good, but I've been working to improve it. Thank you all.

  3. #23
    Registered Kegereneku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyCrusher View Post
    In my humble opinion this issue is one of key pillar of gameplay. I've just tried 'Children of a Dead Earth' and so far I under the impression from beauty of orbital warfare. The key point, alpha&omega, is Delta-V
    That's exactly my opinion.
    I participate to this Early-Access with the assumption that delta-V will matter, that you will have to do economical orbit transfer. It would be very disappointing to read "most realistic (futuristic) spaceship simulation" and end up with the level 0 of space game : unlimited speed & range (more buttons Edition).

    This is why my suggestion went the extra miles of requiring to use "correct" amount of fuel even if you are going to teleport. If the developer could do that, then you could limit the range of a spaceship to its fuel again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psypher View Post
    Handwavium for handwavium, I prefer the way it is now, but you have a very good point here, so, what about a system where the simultaneous usage of MES and weapons generates a lot of waste heat?

    I don't know if this is even plausible (space weapons generating a lot of heat) so, sorry if this is a silly suggestion, anyway this is a very interesting discussion and I want to keep my eyes on it.
    The LENR power-source is already handwavium as it's a (relatively) cold fusion reactor. Realistically you would be need heat radiator as big as the spaceship just to be able to produce any energy. For those who don't know : you can't produce energy if you don't get rid of the heat and SPACE ISN'T COLD, it's void so there nothing to transfer the heat to so the only way is to radiate energy, which is much more difficult.
    With our current tech some weapon do produce enormous amount of energy, like the lasers, but with "Rogue System" level of technology (cold fusion, easy nuclear fusion, cooling-laser...etc) they could get around those problem.

    Nerfing the MES until it can't always be used would only postpone the problem. The silly thing would be to keep the fictional reactionless-drive when more setting-friendly alternative exist.

  4. #24
    Registered Psypher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kegereneku View Post
    The silly thing would be to keep the fictional reactionless-drive when more setting-friendly alternative exist.
    Can you name those? What's your prefered approach? I'm starting to read about "quantum drives" now, thank you.

    Edit: Another question, the laser cooling thing isn't plausible? Or the game exaggerates its efficiency?
    Last edited by Psypher; 01-09-17 at 05:45 AM.
    I apologize in advance for any grammatical error or misuse of words, unfortunately my english is not good, but I've been working to improve it. Thank you all.

  5. #25
    Newer Member BillyCrusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psypher View Post
    Another question, the laser cooling thing isn't plausible? Or the game exaggerates its efficiency?
    As I know, laser cooling is very effective and allow cooling down to temperature near absolute zero. But, IMO, problem is that lasers produce heat itself and they have to be cooled as well.
    Δv=veln(m0/mf)

  6. #26
    Registered Kegereneku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psypher View Post
    Can you name those? What's your prefered approach? I'm starting to read about "quantum drives" now, thank you.

    Oh you have a tons of fictional drive concept (see this list), the trick is finding one you can reshape to fit the setting & feeling you want to achieve.
    - You want to still use conventional propulsion : so you rule out everything that change your relative velocity within the global frame
    - You want to use amount of fuel proportional to distance AND local gravity : so you add rules for that
    - You want it to go everywhere : so you rule out everything that require unique point in space or gates
    - You want it compatible with multiplayer : (no suggestion, that's up to the Developer)
    - (Optional) you want it to take some time : It's ok to avoid 1 hours of travel at the speed of light, but maybe you still want it to take 5 minute rather than 0 seconds

    My preferred approach (pictured in the first post) are for now :
    -Alternative Space (without the ability to change your trajectory within it)
    or
    -Teleportation (which don't change your relative velocity)

    Both case would need you to use fuel to properly get into orbit.
    Then rules can be added to prevent players from fleeing a battle like that, or require to first "AIM" in which direction you'll warp to.

    Of course all this is easier said than done because the mathematical framework to make it look like "not like a cheat code" have to be made from scratch (and maybe it's will have faulty spot)
    I don't know a game that already have an equivalent, maybe "Orbiter" when you use the dev-mode to teleport you around (your relative speed must be dev-moded separately).

    FOR ADDED FUN :
    "What point is there in repairing your craft if all travel take so little time ?"
    Answer : You can make up a fictional rule that FTL make your age a lot, requiring you to go into cryostasis (while the game simulate this time).
    Said short : You go from Earth to Jupiter in an instant but you and your ship get 7 year older.


    Edit: Another question, the laser cooling thing isn't plausible? Or the game exaggerates its efficiency?
    I'm not familiar with the technology but there is basically 2 possibility :
    a) If it can't get rid of more energy than it produce : then it's pointless, like putting a refrigerator inside a bigger one.
    b) If it can get rid of more, but compete with classic Radiator : It become a question of practicality more than efficiency (else you would only use the one that get rid of more heat). An example would be if laser-cooling is less fragile in combat. (stealth is tempting but out of question for other reason)

    In all cases the technology is more or less fictional because today it's only used at atomic & molecular scale for experiment. (not to mention the COLD-FUSION reactor acting like a Mass-energy convertor)
    The rules at play here are the same ones that prevent perpetual energy generator.

  7. #27
    Registered Psypher's Avatar
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    Nice, thank you Kegereneku. To deal whit multiplayer sinc, I suggested in other post an approach similar to Home World's teleportation, but this "warp drive" could be a very interesting "all-around" solution, it could have xx minutes of charging and xx minutes of cooling down and maybe it could not be used inside of strong gravity wells (this makes it difficult to flee from fights and adds some travel to be made). It's usage may put a great stress in the ship, making maintenance something to look very closely.
    I apologize in advance for any grammatical error or misuse of words, unfortunately my english is not good, but I've been working to improve it. Thank you all.

  8. #28
    Registered Kegereneku's Avatar
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    Of course there's a lot of parameter you can use to shape FTL. But finding one that also don't break the game is also difficult.
    Plus the unforeseen consequences (ex : if you can't FTL within a gravity field for example, that would logically include the sun too)

    Both suggested lines of inquiry have for objective to let the player control his destination as a maneuver rather than as code-cheat follower by a click.

    Just to be clear,
    - "Warp" would mean your ship still need the inertia before the "alternate space" where it apply differently so as to make you pass near your destination (leaving midway would require you to modify your trajectory)
    - "Teleportation"would be more like "fold" (in the link), you would control your point of arrival by setting it with your vector beforehand, same as above if you quit midway

    I don't think these concept are difficult to make in themselves, but shaping them & finding a credible balance may be impossible.

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